Where are all the teams and SWAT/CQB tournaments?

[jawinn]

Given all the similarities Airsoft has to the dark sport (paintball), it seems inevitable that there would eventually be a rise in the number Airsoft teams and team events. However, it looks like the opposite is happening. Airsoft events all seem to be large scale productions where being on/having a team would be virtually worthless. I have yet to see the any advertisements for CBQ/SWAT style tournaments, other than the DET5 SWAT tournament at Airsoft CQB, where close teamwork would be rewarded. Are large scale operations that fun? Having never played one I cannot say. Has anyone else noticed this trend?

[Smukatele]

I completely agree Jason! Even though Paintball is an inferior sport, there are things that can be learned from it. When a team is formed, when they play, plan and practice together, when they develop that extra tight brotherhood of killing, there is a marked increase in proficiency that goes along with. Obviously, airsoft teams would have rules banning the gay colors you see in paintball teams...

[DeathSquid]

Even in large scale conflict, you need to have a plan and a cohesive unit to execute. A gaggle**** is not going to get you very far.

[itsahak]

See, where I'm at, all the serious players are on teams. But that probably because when we meet unaffiliated local players we attempt to recruit them (if their worthy). And because we try and associate with tacitcally minded teams.

[shadow]

One of the weird things I notice is sometimes an airsoft team is not set up one way. SMACK as recently noticed this, we now require all SMACK Elite members to wear a Tiger Stripe BDU. Unfortunely I am not ELITE yet and have a woodland BDU, and a desert BDU on the way! I think you dont see teams playing together as much b/c, they dont match, so they dont fit the role they are looking for in an OP. If you can get your team to look a certain way, then you can all be grouped together on one team.

[jawinn]

If you can get your team to look a certain way, then you can all be grouped together on one team.

You're somewhat correct. The problem with this theory is that more and more big op games are requiring entire teams to dress the same in order to have a sort of theatrical cohesiveness. This is similar to how Civil War re-enactors all have to wear period uniforms to participate.

So for example if your official team outfit is USMC digitals and the big Op requires players to either wear all black or woodland camos or desert pattern, etc, your whole team uniform goes out the window. You won't be allowed to wear them.

[shadow]

Yeah, thats something that has happened to us as well, I think there is an OP coming up and we all had to run out and buy desert BDU's. I see russian & woodland used the most.

[jawinn]

I think there is an OP coming up

Do you have any details on this "Op"? If so I post them.

[itsahak]

I think that's been a trend since the first Operation: Irene. They put one side in Woodland Camo, and the other in Desert. that way, when 250 people from all over the country are raoming around, you can tell your side apart.

How ever, I think most large ops will allow you to register either as a team, or at least post what team your on when you register. The promotions i've seen on the forums always seem to try and push teams together. I mean seriously, what fun would you really have on a large op when you have to play against your boys?

and BRASS has gone ahead and set our team uniform. We are going with the digitals.

[shadow]

My first OP I played against my boys, lol. Not very much fun. The funniest part was when I didnt know who was shooting at me and I fired back, and I heard a guy on my team say, "RYAN! Im going to kill you when I come back from the spawn!" I thought it was funny, uh maybe no one else did, since dead men dont talk.

[shadow]

Jawinn, do you want the information on that OP, its in Ohio. Also where in the forum do you want me to put it?

[jawinn]

That's Ok. Put it in here http://www.acmeairsoft.com/forumdisplay.php?f=28

[shadow]

Here it is, http://www.airsoftcleveland.com/safaristrike.htm look at sponsers, right under Madbull, YES SMACK IS A _________________________ <- look for yourself to see what im talking about.

[matshark]

lol...paying against your boys is no fun.... (i always die quick when that happens) besides, the whole POINT of going to an op is to play WITH your team against everybody else... i think it would ruin a good weekend IMO... anybody that runs an op should DEF put a team on the same side if at all possible...

[shadow]

The problem was I only have woodland, and we were playing against russians, my teams main camo is tiger stripe, I didnt have that yet, so I had to be NATO. Jawinn, did you see that link?

[bishop]

Given all the similarities Airsoft has to the dark sport (paintball), it seems inevitable that there would eventually be a rise in the number Airsoft teams and team events. However, it looks like the opposite is happening. Airsoft events all seem to be large scale productions where being on/having a team would be virtually worthless. I have yet to see the any advertisements for CBQ/SWAT style tournaments, other than the DET5 SWAT tournament at Airsoft CQB, where close teamwork would be rewarded. Are large scale operations that fun? Having never played one I cannot say. Has anyone else noticed this trend?

BRASS put on an op a few weeks ago in Lynchburg at the EMS training center, which included a 5 story tower, and 2 story burn building with 12 rooms, two hallways and a stairwell. We had three teams (BRASS, BedSOG, and VTac), and we kept the three teams together, and all three had different roles to play. That was quiet fun...you could definitely see who was all about team work, and who was just there to sling plastic (well, not a whole lot, since they were picked off early :D )

I know we are trying to put a bigger op together in the fall, that will emphasize team work, and I am looking into seeing if we can rent out a multi-level, multi-building (all connected) 100,000 square foot (yes, I said 100,000) manufacturing plant that is closed down and for sale, for another op. I would just need to know if there is enough interest to put together something that big for a weekend CQB event.

[Rob]

I just looked at this post. It's funny where the guns cost so much that the bdu's are such a problem. As I'm tight for cash, i completely understand this though. In BG work sometimes the client can ask for you to wear something specific and it can be costly buying suits, especially at my size where they have to be made.

I like the idea of team ops and small comps with a few teams. The idea of some large facilities is awesome as well. What buildings would be best?

Oil refinary/chemical plant
The Old Asylum/Hospital or school idea is really cool IMO
Large Barns/Stables
Wharehouse
Naval Ship or Yacht
Old Hotel
A museum
super sized old house/mansion (hm might know one of these)

How up would people be for a weekend road trip for a game every so often, say pennsylvania?

[Jaberwaki]

Ja,
you bring up an excellent point and I will reply with thoughts, but first I want to address a pet peeve...

Guys,
this badmouthin Paintball has got to stop. It is simply retarded to put down the sport that will eventually open the doors up for our sport... If airsoft is ever going to get national recognition as a sport and backing from the public, then it will be by traviling the path that paintball has blazed for us. The sports are differant, not better or worse, but PB and airsoft fight in the same foxhole in the public, that is to say we both share the fight to keep it legal to shoot your friends on the weekend without fear of being arrested...
ok rant over

Back to the main post. Gents this is a very easy to fix problem, and yes it is a problem . There is a division in our sport, Huge MILSIM big OP players, and CQB'rs . We really play differant sports just use simular gear...
Us CQB'rs have for too long been the redheaded stepchild of airsoft. It is long overdue that us CQB'rs start putting together our own "ops" but not reanactments of wars in the past, but all out elimination style team based tourniments!...
We can do this ourselves...
ACQB rental days are easy to put together.
There are easily plenty of teams that would be up for this....
If ACME will help put together an ACQB Tourny, then you can count PAIN in:cool:

[BadKarma703]

i wanna be on a team :(... lol. anyone wanna make a team that wears army ACU's?

[crafty_0ne]

I wonder if one reason that you dont see too many CQB type team tournaments is that it smells a bit too much like paintball which most airsofters are trying to avoid. Not badmouthing paintball here(dont want to get lit up by Jab next time we're both at CQB =D ), but it is a fact that most airsofters have a serious dislike of the other sport and might want to try and avoid a type of play that is similar to speedball type events. Or it could just be that they dont have awesome CQB facilites near them to have a tournament in. If they did, they might realize that no one would confues a true CQB type of play with speedball type of play.

[Jaberwaki]

I understand why outside players dont like tourny style play.
but in PB the guys that play MILSIM recball dont like tourny PB either.

But.... CQB'rs have alot in comman with tourny PB'rs.
High speed play on a short course
high ROF shooting
SWAT style moving and shooting
emphisis on function over realist MILSIM.
Wanting to have fun, but also likeing to WIN
A much more competative attitude.

Us vet CQB'rs need to stop badmouthing PB to noobs because it is having a near RACIST effect..
I hear noobs all the time saying "yeh paint ball sucks" so I ask, "what about it sucks??"
Them "I dont know it just does cause airsoft is so much better"
me "You ever play paintball?"
Them "no"
Me "ok I just wanted to make sure you knew what you were talking about"(roll eyes)

Noobs hear the uber cool vets saying PB sucks and just assume that is true and them shy away from ANYTHING that even resembles PB.
Forgetting one MAJOR aspect... That is the reason why there is a PB feild in every town, and it has a HUGE world wide following...
IT IS FUN!!!
Why the hell are we LIMITING airsoft? Long slow MILSIM games are not every airsofters cup of tea...
I know a CQB tournement would be a big hit...

Run 8 man teams (number could be differant but 8 is perfect for 2 fireteams per side)
2 teams on the field at a time
list of games in a hat
double elimination (or points so noone has to go home early)
and you would get a chance to try your team against other actual TEAMS...

now I am not saying we need multi colored jerseys or hoppers... This is still airsoft, and we are not playing on a turf feild with inflatable barrieers... this is still CQB... we play a tourney but we play it airsoft style...
I know I cant be alone in wanting something like this.

(and no crafty I dont hunt people at ACQB for having a differance of oppinion with me :cool:)

[crafty_0ne]

(and no crafty I dont hunt people at ACQB for having a differance of oppinion with me :cool:)

Lol good to know:D

Although I wasnt so much disagreing or agreeing with you, just theorizing on possible reasons since im all hepped up on caffeine and cant get to sleep and have nothing better to do then troll every forum I've ever been a memebr on.

And i'd love to participate in the type of tourney you describe.

[Jaberwaki]

Lol good to know:D

Although I wasnt so much disagreing or agreeing with you, just theorizing on possible reasons since im all hepped up on caffeine and cant get to sleep and have nothing better to do then troll every forum I've ever been a memebr on.

And i'd love to participate in the type of tourney you describe.


yeh, this is what I do when I am bored at work... I troll like 6 differant forums:o

[itsahak]

I like the 8 man team idea!!

[Rob]

My son was asking me why he could not fond airsoft magazines in the store yesterday. I couldn't give him an answer outside of an assumption which is the sport is not large enough, the sport is not well defined enough, the sport hasn't been Commercialized enough... yet.

When my wife and I visited ACQB on Friday we were impressed with the few guys we met, how nice and informative they were. We were impressed how everyone was having fun, into it yet it was snobby or stuck in some elitist rut. The point being even us noobs were treated as a family. NOW when I have visited other PB or milsim sports and such I didn't get that feeling. To me that makes a difference.

I think tournaments have their place, I'll even do my best to support them when and how I can, but please don't lose the family atomosphere you all have in CQB. it is what makes it unique to the other systems.

Prizes can make or break games.
When I used to compete years (teenage years) ago in a world sport I had won over 700 trophies and I tell you none of them mattered (as much, I gave them all to special olympics) as winning "gear" and getting into the magazines.
I'd suggest figuring out how many teams you want.
6 teams of 8 people? altogether 48 people
You would need prizes for 48+ people then.
The trick is to figure it out on 3 tiers, a prize you can provide for dirt cheap to all, maybe a t-shirt (silk screening is cheap do it yourself style and you can do any design you want that way, or a lapel pin?
Then you need tier 2 which is a random drawing set of prizes (call it door prizes), like goggles, gloves, mask, bags of bb's, gas, and such, last you need to Tourney winner prizes, there you could give away gift cerificates for purchases to second or third and a gun or set to a team which they would then raffle to one player (the other winners would get gift certs or maybe low er cost gear). of course trophies can be given as well. So all of this cost money. you have the rental as well. And you need someone brave enough to go around filming with video and taking pics to put together a post reminder.

So how much would it cost?
$20 for course rental a person?
another $25 for gear and prizes per person?
another $5 for marketing it and getting all the logistics set up?
Thats around $1250 in prizes and gear to give way. What a good base gun costs? $300. That leaves over $950 for the rest of the 50 prizes.

Another bonus would be to hold a group seminar first to go over some team stuff. A good trainer may volunteer time for stuff like this to get some press and name recognition. (You still want to give them a gift as well)

So maybe $50 for a good tourney that you know you are guranteed a great time, a prize of some sort and some memories in print/video. Plus the winning team will get bragging rights that are set on web and print.

Another way to raise money for a tourney is to run giveaways that finace it. Self tickets to a raffle for a gun. So you sell 200 $5 tickets to win a new gun each month. After 3 months you have financed it. or at least raised a base $1500.

Just my 2 cents IMO :D

[Jaberwaki]

sounds like Rob would be the man to handle logistics for the Tourny :D

[bishop]

sounds like Rob would be the man to handle logistics for the Tourny :D


Yep...by speaking up, I thinkhe nominated himself! :cool:

[Rob]

Yep...by speaking up, I think he nominated himself! :cool:


Looks like you two (Jaberwaki - Bishop) will be my side kicks though. :D

Let me get started (learning what I need in airsoft) and I'll give you all a hand setting up stuff like this, if it is really wanted. I have some old clients that were Convention and Event planners we might be able to coerse into helping us. Who knows if we try, we might be able to get some sponsors to donate to it. Or wifes to bake sale for us hahahahaha :p

[afroman794]

tournament. this sounds good saw this thread when it was origionaly made and thought a tourney wud be a great idea. ill help in any way i can to get one off the ground. let me know if anything develops

[mr7q]

I think DET5 did something like this a while back. Urban Challenge or somesuch.

Might be worthwhile to ask them what they did. Tim at ACQB probably knows what's up.

[afroman794]

i know last summer their was a tourney at acqb (or so it says on their website) im pretty sure it was in august. and i wonder if steve would be interested in taking say a sunday or saturday to devote to it

[matshark]

that would be fun... what was the team size limit?

[Jaberwaki]

that would be fun... what was the team size limit?

My vote is for 8 man teams... no more no less.. makes 2 fireteams per team and most airsoft teams out there have at least this ammount...
If you have more then that, then just field an A squad and a B squad:cool:

[L-Train]

I think what we need to do is talk to Steve at ACQB...It would be very easy for us to get a weekday night or early weekend at CQB and just run our own tournaments...Personally, prizes are cool but I would love to run legitimate sims against other trained teams. 5 man elements...We set it for early on a Sunday and just come in and run multiple sims against eachother at that time...Say an Embasy attack/defend and a half field deathmatch...There are enough of us...

We need to start a board with all the teams recognized on it and then just start challenging eachother...So say I'm on Team C...Team A & Team B want to challenge eachother...I would go and ref that game along with a few members of Team C. When my team (Team C) would challenge B, we would expect members of Team A to come in and ref our matches, etc, etc...

I think CQB Tournys would be great but honestly, at the end of the day, I don't show up on Saturdays to win prizes, I come in to play and win and I think those wins would be a lot more legitimate playing against trained teams.

[Jaberwaki]

We have details to hack out, but from the looks of it, we have enough interrest to get seriouse about setting up a tourney day...


First things first, We need to talk to steve and set a date.
once we have a date set in stone (it will need to be at least 1 month from the time we set it) Then we can open a post to discuss team sizes, rules, and which games we will be running(not every type of game will work for a tourny)

[afroman794]

definately manageable if steve is for it. a thursday or wed. thurs. combination sounds good and it isnt going to infringe on his main business days.

[L-Train]

So what are we thinking...5 man elements vs. 5 man elements? I think even having other teams step in as civilians and hostages (as well as refs) would be a cool twist to the matches.

[Jaberwaki]

I like the 8 man teams... too many teams are too big to only have 5 man teams... almost everyteam on the boards would be fielding 2-3 teams...

I like the using a third team to act as refs.... that would instantly fix ALOT of the no-hit calling(not all, of it but most)

[Rob]

8 man teams... make sense but it is a small field for that IMO only
ah other teams as refs and npc's is a great idea too

[L-Train]

OK...so besides talking to Steve, what steps do we need to take to make this happen? I think we need to start talking about sims we'll do...standard deathmatches are solid but I think VIP (diplomatic protection) sims would be cool (one team is security detail, other is terrorists who can ambush from any part of the field. NPCs as civilians and the VIP, maybe even as VIPs staff which could allow for multiple objectives on the terrorists side...kidnap the press secretary or something). Any ideas?

[jawinn]

I think DET5 did something like this a while back. Urban Challenge or somesuch.

Might be worthwhile to ask them what they did. Tim at ACQB probably knows what's up.

The last time I talked to Steve about a tournament he said that the Det 5 one was the best one they ever had. The reason was that there was no possibility of cheating. Everyone was shooting the same non player's who were playing as terrorists etc. He also said that it took all day the day before to setup and it ran all day the next day and they only had like eight teams.

I see two problems with the ideas being tossed around. One is that weekdays are tuff for people to play on. If you did it during the summer you'd probably fair better b/c the school aged kids could play.

The other problem I see is that eight committed players is high IMO. I think 5 is more realistic. Acme is a strong team but I doubt we could get eight players to agree to a date and time.

BTW I am totally in if we get this setup.

my 2 cents.

[L-Train]

I agree with 5 being more realistic...It makes total sense to have an 8 man team in the event that some members can't show up. I think the DET5 tournament is a good idea, but I think we need to set these more up as challenge matches...Faster setup and fast execution...We can outline the rules to these games before hand so there are no doubts and I think having other teams ref would essentially eliminate the "confusion" of not calling hits...

[mr7q]

I think that the teams playing against a dedicated OpFor is the best way to do it. That, and you've got a field full of dedicated refs already.

I would think team on team would encourage far too much competition in a sport based on honor. I don't want there to be an incentive to cheat.

I'll volunteer to be OpFor.

[L-Train]

I think the only difficulty with that is organization...I think with a challenge based system, games can be organized a lot faster and won't need as many resources to get off the ground. But it goes without saying that I'm in as OpFor as well.